Subject: Tori / TKO
From: october@zone.com (eddz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.neil-gaiman
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 21:10:26 GMT

>Blond Tori????? In the Kindly Ones???????? Where?????? Oh, DO tell! No...
>wait... found it! Yeah, blond indeed. Are there other appearances of her
>besides from her song in Brief Lives? Her alusions to him are clear (um... 3,
>aren´t there?). So, anything else I missed?

There's a poster in Death: TOYL (there's also an Army of Darkness poster).

for the record- in TKO part 4, there's a Tori poster on Rose's wall, and the Under The Pink cd booklet on her couch.

P.S.- was Loki Detective Pinkerton the whole time we see him? If so, does that mean Detective Fellowes is Puck? If so, does that mean they showed the photo of Daniel to Lyta to get her to hunt Morpheus? After all, the photo did catch fire, as did Carla. And the place where Daniel was burned was in Faerie or someplace, so nobody would have found him in the real world to take a picture. Loki says he won't be under obligation to anyone. Morpheus did make a deal with him. It seems to me that Morph sent Loki to fetch Daniel because he wasn't allowed to interfere himself. Not sure about the burning, that may have been Loki's decision and just a good coincidence. I think Puck just happened to be hanging out with Loki and joined in the fun. The question is why Morpheus chose to receive Daniel at that point in time.

P.P.S.- my girlfriend was wondering what the purpose of Desire's meeting with Rose in TKO was. I think it had something to do with the cigarette lighter, but no idea why.

(e)

Subject: Re: Tori / TKO
From: cws@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Christopher W. Shumway)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.neil-gaiman
Date: 10 Jul 1999 21:38:21 GMT

eddz (october@zone.com) wrote:
:
: P.S.- was Loki Detective Pinkerton the whole time
: we see him? If so, does that mean Detective
: Fellowes is Puck?

...Isn't Puck a.k.a. Robin Goodfellow? coincidence?

--
Chris

Subject: Re: Tori / TKO
From: Morgan Thomas <Morgan_Thomas@bc.sympatico.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.neil-gaiman
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:30:42 -0700

Christopher W. Shumway wrote:

> eddz (october@zone.com) wrote:
> :
> : P.S.- was Loki Detective Pinkerton the whole time
> : we see him? If so, does that mean Detective
> : Fellowes is Puck?

> ...Isn't Puck a.k.a. Robin Goodfellow? coincidence?

And the name Luke Pinkerton also coresponds to Loki Leiferson.

Subject: Re: Tori / TKO
From: squidboy@visi.com (Lance "Squiddie" Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.neil-gaiman
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 21:51:42 GMT

october@zone.com (eddz) writes:

>we see him? If so, does that mean Detective
>Fellowes is Puck?

Puck is also known as Robin Goodfellow.

>P.P.S.- my girlfriend was wondering what the
>purpose of Desire's meeting with Rose in
>TKO was. I think it had something to do with
>the cigarette lighter, but no idea why.

Rose got her heart back.

Lance Smith

Subject: Re: Tori / TKO
From: lunavudu@aol.com (Luna Vudu)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.neil-gaiman
Date: 11 Jul 1999 23:20:59 GMT

eddz wrote:
>my girlfriend was wondering what the
>purpose of Desire's meeting with Rose in
>TKO was. I think it had something to do with
>the cigarette lighter, but no idea why.

The clues are all there in the story. Zelda says that she "got a message from Rose's grandmother" that if Rose came to England she'd give back her heart.
Desire is Rose's grand....parent, and the cigarette lighter is heartshaped.
Rose spends a good portion of the early part of the story wondering about why she doesn't feel anything (i.e. the bit she reads from her own journal). When she goes to England, and meets Jack, and with all that follows, she is definitely feeling things. She's got her heart back.

Try a little harder to figure things out for yourself; it's more fun that way.

strainedly, luna

Subject: Re: Tori / TKO
From: october@zone.com (eddz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.neil-gaiman
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 23:49:28 GMT

>Try a little harder to figure things out for yourself; it's more fun that way.

The thing about Sandman is that it's hard to get everything on the first read, cos you're basically hyponized by everything: the colors, the dialogue, the characters, the places, etc. What I wonder is how Neil manages to fit all these pieces into the puzzle. It's really so intricate that it almost seems like it would be impossible for a human to create and that it's actually not all true. Hmm... *ponder*

(e)

Subject: Re: Tori / TKO
From: Jennifer Reinhart <delirium@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.neil-gaiman
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:15:11 GMT

eddz wrote:

> P.P.S.- my girlfriend was wondering what the
> purpose of Desire's meeting with Rose in
> TKO was. I think it had something to do with
> the cigarette lighter, but no idea why.

Well, that's a step up from telling you have too many comics...

I've also got some unresolved thoughts about Rose and Desire...I thought at first that in the meeting in TKO, Desire is giving Rose her heart back...which would make sense, except that in Doll's House, it was *Unity* that gave her heart to Morpheus. And then why would Desire be giving it to her? How did s/he get it?

But, here's what I guess is actually going on. I've always felt that Rose's story was unresolved...I mean, here she is, granddaughter of one of the endless, and they just leaver her hangin' about, all immortal and stuff, and the end of the story... that can't be right. So what I think is happening is that now that Morpheus is dead, Desire is undoing one of the reality-kinks s/he caused in plotting against him. I think what's happening at their meeting in TKO is that Desire is giving Rose her heart so that she is no longer immortal...making her a normal human.

--Jenny Jo

Subject: Re: Tori / TKO
From: dvnews@dyve.net (Dylan Verheul)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.neil-gaiman
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:22:24 GMT

On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:15:11 GMT, Jennifer Reinhart
<delirium@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote:

>But, here's what I guess is actually going on. I've always felt that Rose's story
>was unresolved...I mean, here she is, granddaughter of one of the endless, and
>they just leaver her hangin' about, all immortal and stuff, and the end of the
>story...that can't be right. So what I think is happening is that now that
>Morpheus is dead, Desire is undoing one of the reality-kinks s/he caused in
>plotting against him. I think what's happening at their meeting in TKO is that
>Desire is giving Rose her heart so that she is no longer immortal...making her a
>normal human.

Not necessarily. Mad Hettie has her heart, but she hides it. Rose could hide it, or just keep it on her body. I think she is still immortal.

In fact, she might be in a pub in 2089.

Hmm, we should fix her up with Hob.

D

Subject: Re: Tori / TKO
From: Jennifer Reinhart <delirium@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.neil-gaiman
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:51:25 GMT

Dylan Verheul wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:15:11 GMT, Jennifer Reinhart
> <delirium@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
> >But, here's what I guess is actually going on. I've always felt that Rose's story
> >was unresolved...I mean, here she is, granddaughter of one of the endless, and
> >they just leaver her hangin' about, all immortal and stuff, and the end of the
> >story...that can't be right. So what I think is happening is that now that
> >Morpheus is dead, Desire is undoing one of the reality-kinks s/he caused in
> >plotting against him. I think what's happening at their meeting in TKO is that
> >Desire is giving Rose her heart so that she is no longer immortal...making her a
> >normal human.

> Not necessarily. Mad Hettie has her heart, but she hides it. Rose
> could hide it, or just keep it on her body. I think she is still
> immortal.
>
> In fact, she might be in a pub in 2089.
>
> Hmm, we should fix her up with Hob.

But, that's my problem, see. She has sooo much more story to go just as a result of her family ties, if that scene with Desire wasn't intended as at least some kind of a resolution of that...

--Jenny Jo

Subject: Re: Tori / TKO
From: Morgan Thomas <Morgan_Thomas@bc.sympatico.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.neil-gaiman
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:19:31 -0700

Jennifer Reinhart wrote:

> Dylan Verheul wrote:

> > On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:15:11 GMT, Jennifer Reinhart
> > <delirium@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> >
> > >But, here's what I guess is actually going on. I've always felt that Rose's story
> > >was unresolved...I mean, here she is, granddaughter of one of the endless,
> > >they just leaver her hangin' about, all immortal and stuff, and the end of the
> > >story...that can't be right. So what I think is happening is that now that
> > >Morpheus is dead, Desire is undoing one of the reality-kinks s/he caused in
> > >plotting against him. I think what's happening at their meeting in TKO is that
> > >Desire is giving Rose her heart so that she is no longer immortal...making her a
> > >normal human.

> > Not necessarily. Mad Hettie has her heart, but she hides it. Rose
> > could hide it, or just keep it on her body. I think she is still
> > immortal.
> >
> > In fact, she might be in a pub in 2089.
> >
> > Hmm, we should fix her up with Hob.

> But, that's my problem, see. She has sooo much more story to go just as a result of
> her family ties, if that scene with Desire wasn't intended as at least some kind of a
> resolution of that...

Maybe Desire is setting up Rose or her daughter to be her replacment sometime in the future, giving her her sigil and whatnot. Just a thought.

Subject: Re: Tori / TKO
From: dvnews@dyve.net (Dylan Verheul)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.neil-gaiman
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:05:45 GMT

On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:19:31 -0700, Morgan Thomas
<Morgan_Thomas@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:

>Maybe Desire is setting up Rose or her daughter to be her replacment sometime in the
>future, giving her her sigil and whatnot. Just a thought.

Wow, interesting. Hadn't thought of that. I like the idea. Kind of like Poe's letter.

OK, dilemma. I just heard that Highlander III (which, of course, does not exist) will be on TV in a few minutes. I have never watched it before, since it does not exist. However, the TV is on, and I only have to move from computer to couch to watch it. Well, I could, if that movie existed. But it doesn't. So what do I do?

D

Subject: Re: Tori / TKO
From: october@zone.com (eddz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.neil-gaiman
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:35:09 GMT

>OK, dilemma. I just heard that Highlander III (which, of course, does
>not exist) will be on TV in a few minutes. I have never watched it
>before, since it does not exist. However, the TV is on, and I only
>have to move from computer to couch to watch it. Well, I could, if
>that movie existed. But it doesn't. So what do I do?

Eh? Highlander 3 exists, and Highlander 4 (although God knows why) is being made/soon to be made/whatever. Although, if you've seen it.. Highlander 3 can't exist because...

(SPOILER! as if)

The villians in it are immortals who have been trapped in a cave for centuries. If they were present during the first story, there never would have been a 'Prize' because MacCleod wouldn't have killed the *last* immortal. Or at least, that's what I thought after seeing it, maybe I missed something. Therefore not only would the end of film 1 not have happened, but film 2 would not have happened.

Actually, I had the same idea recently when my GF said she was going to watch Candyman 3, and I said 'wha?
that doesn't exist!'. And she said it does, it's on tv. And low and behold, it does.

(e) nevermind

Subject: Re: Tori / TKO
From: dvnews@dyve.net (Dylan Verheul)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.neil-gaiman
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:22:08 GMT

On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:35:09 GMT, october@zone.com (eddz) wrote:

>>OK, dilemma. I just heard that Highlander III (which, of course, does
>>not exist) will be on TV in a few minutes. I have never watched it
>>before, since it does not exist. However, the TV is on, and I only
>>have to move from computer to couch to watch it. Well, I could, if
>>that movie existed. But it doesn't. So what do I do?

>Eh? Highlander 3 exists, and Highlander 4 (although God
>knows why) is being made/soon to be made/whatever.
>Although, if you've seen it.. Highlander 3 can't exist because...

I have watched for almost an hour now, and it comletely sucks. It destroys the Highlander universe, as does the second film. If they are going to make Highlander IV, they'd better have naother Immortal, because Lambert does not look very immortal these days.

By the way, denying the existance of the second and third movies (which both do not exist) is sort of a running joke among Highlander fans. Or at least, it used to be when I read the newsgroups.

>The villians in it are immortals who have been trapped in a
>cave for centuries. If they were present during the first story,
>there never would have been a 'Prize' because MacCleod
>wouldn't have killed the *last* immortal. Or at least, that's
>what I thought after seeing it, maybe I missed something.
>Therefore not only would the end of film 1 not have happened,
>but film 2 would not have happened.

It would have been acceptable if they had left out the silly magic and had it end before the ending of Highlander I. Connor in Japan would have made for a good story, at least a better one than this.

D

Subject: Re: Tori / TKO
From: monkysquat@aol.com (Monkysquat)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.neil-gaiman
Date: 17 Jul 1999 02:29:59 GMT

>From: dvnews@dyve.net (Dylan Verheul)
>Date: Thu, 15 July 1999 05:22 PM EDT
>Message-id: <37935043.16245210@news.demon.nl>

>On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:35:09 GMT, october@zone.com (eddz) wrote:
>
>>>OK, dilemma. I just heard that Highlander III (which, of course, does
>>>not exist) will be on TV in a few minutes. I have never watched it
>>>before, since it does not exist. However, the TV is on, and I only
>>>have to move from computer to couch to watch it. Well, I could, if
>>>that movie existed. But it doesn't. So what do I do?

>>Eh? Highlander 3 exists, and Highlander 4 (although God
>>knows why) is being made/soon to be made/whatever.
>>Although, if you've seen it.. Highlander 3 can't exist because...

>I have watched for almost an hour now, and it comletely sucks. It
>destroys the Highlander universe, as does the second film. If they are
>going to make Highlander IV, they'd better have naother Immortal,
>because Lambert does not look very immortal these days.
>
>By the way, denying the existance of the second and third movies
>(which both do not exist) is sort of a running joke among Highlander
>fans. Or at least, it used to be when I read the newsgroups.

>>The villians in it are immortals who have been trapped in a
>>cave for centuries. If they were present during the first story,
>>there never would have been a 'Prize' because MacCleod
>>wouldn't have killed the *last* immortal. Or at least, that's
>>what I thought after seeing it, maybe I missed something.
>>Therefore not only would the end of film 1 not have happened,
>>but film 2 would not have happened.

>It would have been acceptable if they had left out the silly magic and
>had it end before the ending of Highlander I. Connor in Japan would
>have made for a good story, at least a better one than this.

You read alt.tv.highlander? I used to be one of the geezers on that group from almost the start. To relate this back to Neil, I asked him if he'd be interested in writing an issue of a Highlander anthology comic that I thought about trying to do at one time. I wanted it to be something like the Legend of the Dark Knight book or the original concept for the Dreaming with a different creative team doing a story every month or so. He politely declined saying he was far too busy already and mentioned that his friend (whose name escapes me now) wrote the Highlander novelization for the movie. Too bad that I never got that project going. Just imagine a story about the Kurgan's early days written by Garth Ennis and painted by Simon Bizley.

Ivory

Subject: Re: Tori / TKO
From: monkysquat@aol.com (Monkysquat)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.neil-gaiman
Date: 17 Jul 1999 02:19:31 GMT

>From: dvnews@dyve.net (Dylan Verheul)
>Date: Thu, 15 July 1999 04:05 PM EDT
>Message-id: <37923e91.11714144@news.demon.nl>

>On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:19:31 -0700, Morgan Thomas
><Morgan_Thomas@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>>Maybe Desire is setting up Rose or her daughter to be her replacment sometime in the
>>future, giving her her sigil and whatnot. Just a thought.

>Wow, interesting. Hadn't thought of that. I like the idea. Kind of
>like Poe's letter.
>
>OK, dilemma. I just heard that Highlander III (which, of course, does
>not exist) will be on TV in a few minutes. I have never watched it
>before, since it does not exist. However, the TV is on, and I only
>have to move from computer to couch to watch it. Well, I could, if
>that movie existed. But it doesn't. So what do I do?

Depends on how big an HL fan you are.
I own HL 3 on Laser even tho I really despise the film. It's a horrid piece of trash that was more or less a very bad and cheap looking remake of the first film that even went so far as to directly steal some dialog from the original. The only really good thing to come from this movie was a nice replica sword reproducing Kane's "Dark Magic" katana. I've watched all the sequels and every ep of the TV series in hopes of something good, most of it wasn't. I just disavow anything I don't like and HL 3 is at the top of the list. They are currently in preproduction on the next HL movie that will team Duncan from the series and Connor from the movies. More than likely it too will be shite but I will be in line to see it regardless. Also a note to any HL and Lambert fans. There's a movie on cable right now titled "Ressurection" starring Lambert and directed by Russell Mulcahy who helmed the first two HL films. It's quite good, sort of like "Seven".

Ivory

Subject: Re: Tori / TKO
From: Elchonon Edelson <ee@isoft.com>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.neil-gaiman
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 01:37:17 -0400

Jennifer Reinhart wrote:
>
> I've also got some unresolved thoughts about Rose and Desire...I thought at first
> that in the meeting in TKO, Desire is giving Rose her heart back...which would
> make sense, except that in Doll's House, it was *Unity* that gave her heart to
> Morpheus. And then why would Desire be giving it to her? How did s/he get it?
[snip]

Er, no? If I recall correctly, Rose gave Unity that part of her that made her the Vortex. Her heart. Unity did not then give anything to Morpheus, Unity *died*. Which took care of the problem of the Vortex, negating the need to kill Rose.

What *I* want to know is: How did desire subsequently get ahold of Roses heart, and who was it who whispered into Unity's ear when she was awake, telling her what was happening with Rose, that she should know to take her heart from her.

Hmm. The two are probably interlinked.

--
Elchonon Edelson <ee@isoft.com>

Subject: Re: Tori / TKO
From: Jennifer Reinhart <delirium@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.neil-gaiman
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 07:12:02 GMT

Elchonon Edelson wrote:

> Jennifer Reinhart wrote:
> >
> > I've also got some unresolved thoughts about Rose and Desire...I thought at first
> > that in the meeting in TKO, Desire is giving Rose her heart back...which would
> > make sense, except that in Doll's House, it was *Unity* that gave her heart to
> > Morpheus. And then why would Desire be giving it to her? How did s/he get it?

> [snip]
>
> Er, no? If I recall correctly, Rose gave Unity that part of her that
> made her the Vortex. Her heart. Unity did not then give anything to
> Morpheus, Unity *died*. Which took care of the problem of the Vortex,
> negating the need to kill Rose.

Aha! I have looked it up, and things are a little clearer...Unity says, "Give me whatever it is that makes you the vortex...give me your heart." Rose pulls out the big pink heart, and gives it to Unity, making her the vortex...then unity breaks it in half, killing her, after saying, "I am the vortex now, dream king. As I should have been so many years ago."

So, here's what's strange, and what I think is happening. Unity dies when she breaks *Rose's* heart...but that means she must not have had a heart of her own, and since Rose didn't die, her heart must have been somewhere else. Her comment about how she *should* have been the vortex makes me think that Desire stole her heart when s/he fathered Rose's mother, and then swapped that heart with Rose's to make her the vortex...the possible motive being that Desire spotted Unity's heart for what it was, and wanted to save it to use to hurt Morpheus when he got out of his prison. So when they break the heart in The Doll's House, Rose doesn't have a heart, which explains her coldness, and then the heart Desire gives her in TKO is her proper heart that she should have had all along.

Does that make sense?

My theory on the working of hearts, by the way, is based on how they work in Neverwhere and with Mad Hettie.
:-)

--Jenny Jo