 Le due miniserie di Death: pareri
I'm wondering if anyone else was actually disappointed
with the two Death series, or if I'm the only one? It's not The first one didn't make much sense to me. Death is a person and some suicidal guy meets her and changes his mind. Mad Hettie wants her heart found, Death finds it by accident, then Hettie just hides it again. Then there's some blind nut who takes Death's ankh for some reason or other and then just disappears at the end. then there's the thing with the pennies which I'm sure has some historical/mythological/religious meaning, but what's the point since it's not explained? I'm not complaining, just wondering if I missed something. The second series had more of a plot, but most of it was backstory. I thought it was weird that Foxglove all of a sudden just starts doing magic at the drop of a hat. I liked the Army of Darkness poster in the background, which ironically was on the back of an issue of the first series (or was the reference intentional?). The most interesting thing is how the Foxglove/Hazel story is weaved between the two series, which I'm sure would be even moreso interesting if I'd read their appearance in Sandman. So am I missing something or did anyone else feel this way (on first reading)? (e) Subject: Re: Death
In _A Game of You_, both Hazel and Foxglove witness Thessaly bringin' down the moon, with Foxglove contributing to the spell in her own way. So Foxglove, while likely improvising, probably still had that experience at the back her mind to guide her. M Subject: Re: Death
Well, the point is that its a part of a myth about death. Which is one of the myths that form the background to this story (the idea of death becoming mortal for a day for a start). The pennies are from Greek myth, where they were put on the eyes of the dead, and IIRC were also used to pay the ferryman over the river Styx on the soul's way to the land of the dead.
[please insert standard rant about reading the rest of the Sandman here, with version of your choice] ObDeath: I just heard 'I Don't Like Mondays' on the radio again, and I *wasn't* imagining 'peachy keen' in the lyrics after all... Sorcha Subject: Re: Death
Nah, the pennies are to hold your eyelids down. They came later. A coin was placed in your mouth to pay the ferryman. When Hercules went down to get Cerberus, he had to put a coin in his mouth to fool the ferryman. ObBeatles: My advice to those who die: Declare the pennys on your eyes.
"Sweet sixteen aint so peachy keen" isn't it? Tell me why I don't like Tuesdays... ObGaiman: Got my copy of the Duran Duran book today. All the way from Croatia! ObDeath: RIP Screaming Lord Such. A looney til the end. Lance Smith Subject: Re: Death In article <dnPb3.2751$kS.388797@ptah.visi.com>, squidboy@visi.com (Lance
No, I think Sorcha was right. The pennies, or half dollars are supposed to pay your ferry across the River Styx (they also did serve to keep the eyes shut). Hence the entire plot of the Harlan Ellison story "Pennies Off a Deadman's Eyes" where the main character sees a woman cop a pair of coins off a corpses eyes and sends him to Hell (figuratively of course.) This could get dangerous; using Harlan Ellison to boulster Greek mythology. Larry Madill, Jr. Subject: Re: Death "Globalhead" <globalhead@mindspring.com> writes:
>No, I think Sorcha was right. The pennies, or half dollars are supposed to But the Greeks didn't have pennies and half dollars and I can't imagine anyone who did being excited about paying for a boat trip to the underworld... I suppose it may have evolved from the origin, but the tradition in Greece (specifically Athens, I don't know about some of the wilder regions) was to place one obol (about a sixth of a drachma) between the teeth or in the mouth. This was Charon's fee for transport across Styx and into Hades. (And while I'm here, Charon was not skeletal like he is too often depicted.) I'd have to look, but I think the coins on the eyes came much later and is more of a Northern European thang. ObGaiman: So anyone in Europe seen the UK edition of Stardust yet? Any idea who is publishing it? Lance Smith Subject: Slightly OT question (was Re: Death)
Sorry to break in with this, but I'm new here and I've seen this in
alot of posts and can't figure out what it means -
where it says ObGaiman, or ObWhatever??? Thanks, Subject: Re: Slightly OT question (was Re: Death) Star & Troy wrote: "OBligatory" whatever. Generally used when you add a actual on-topic comment to an otherwise completely off-topic post. Sort of like this: ObGaiman: Why did Chapters tell me that The Wake is out of print? Is it temporarily unavailable, or is Chapters as screwed up as I suspect they are? -karen Subject: Re: Death >From: squidboy@visi.com (Lance "Squiddie" Smith)
>Nah, the pennies are to hold your eyelids down. They came later. A coin Now I'm flashing back to my Classics Studies class... someone brought the coin
thing up when we were talking about the underworld, and our teacher mentioned
that the coin to pay the ferryman came later and was an addition, because
coinage hadn't been invented yet when the original myths came into being. Jen Subject: Re: Death Lance Squiddie Smith wrote:
> Nah, the pennies are to hold your eyelids down. They came later. A coin Right, two different coins there - I checked and the one for the ferryman (an obulus) was put under the tongue of the body, which I suppose was either in a different part or time period to the coins on the eyes. Speaking of which, I loved the little scene in the Song of Orpheus where Orpheus was crossing the river - his playing makes Charon cry but he doesn't want him to stop playing... Sorcha Subject: Re: Death I find it helps if you accept that ALL the characters are living lives of their own when they're not centre-stage, so to speak. There is a story surrounding Mad Hettie, or the Eremite, or anybody, but either we only see it in snatches, or it's in something we haven't read, or it hasn't been written yet. Or, indeed, that has been passed down from ancient myth. Don't worry if you've missed something, I'm pretty sure we all have ... In fact, I'm pretty certain that's one of the points ... JJ Subject: Re: Death eddz wrote: Don't you see the significance of that? >Mad Hettie wants her heart found, Death finds it by accident, To my way of thinking, she wanted to know where it was, but she didn't want Death to know where it was once she wasn't spending the day as a mortal anymore. >Then there's some blind nut who takes Death's ankh for some reason I would think the reason would be fairly obvious. It's the same reason anyone would want Dream's helm. It's a symbol of office and it is powerful. In the Books of Magic miniseries (ANOTHER thing you haven't read, right?), it's the ankh that Death uses to "lock up the universe" at the end of time. >then there's the thing with the pennies which I'm sure As other people have already pointed out, the pennies over the eyes (and the fare paid to get into the afterlife) are part of mythological and historical tradition. >I'm not complaining, just wondering if I missed something. Obviously, you did. Now I'm not saying that the Death series are my favorites, or anything... they're not, especially the second one. But there's a lot of logic to the story that you're clearly not picking up on Also, I know I'm reiterating and repeating but I don't think it can be said enough: Until you've read the whole Sandman series you're missing out on much, if not *most*, of the significance of the individiual stories. Please make the effort to have a better knowledge of the material; a lot of the answers to your questions can be found in the rest of the story. It's like reading chapter one of "The Hobbit" and wondering why all the loose ends aren't tied up. inconveniently, luna Subject: Re: Death In article <376f237d.42455408@news.gate.net>, Does this mean you haven't read 'A Game of You', either?! Let's see, we already know you haven't (or maybe hadn't, by now) read 'Orpheus' or 'Brief Lives'... Maybe you've already posted this info somewhere and I missed it, but for the record, just which parts of 'Sandman' *have* you read? Curiously (the most polite word I can think of...), Subject: Re: Death I'm popping back out of lurker mode for a second, because I disagree with
you so strongly, eddz. Death: HCL was the first Gaiman work I read (for the
record, I've now read everything by him that is in print, and most things
that aren't (like Miracleman, his A1 stories, etc.)). I obviously wasn't yet
familiar with Hazel, Fox, Mad Hettie, the Eremite (who we're pretty certain
is Mr. E, having returned from his billion year backward voyage. Ah, but
that's Books of Magic, which you also haven't read), or even Death. Yet the
book changed my life completely. I was only 15 when I read it, and in
'Sexton mode'. "Live dull, say 'What's the point?', and leave a note", I
thought to myself. I was already a philosophy buff, and was trying to find
meaning in the works of the great. I read Ayn Rand when I was 12, and,
unlike most teen pseudo-intellectuals, dismissed it as fatuous,
self-important junk, both as literature and as philosophy. But even Plato,
Kant, and Hume didn't speak to me (though I'll always have a soft spot for
Hume, one of the first 'humanists' who tried to base his philosophy on human
happiness). Yet a simple comic book told me what there was to live for. No,
I can't synthesize or even summarize its message. Saying "Life is beautiful,
so enjoy it!" sounds trite, and "Do you people eat hot dogs for the chemical But still... Death may be a book written for disillusioned cynical little boys (and girls) who are melodramatic yet stupid. And I was one. I actually agreed with everything Sexton said up till the end when I first read it. It's rather hard to identify with that me now, but I do remember it... Death showed me, somehow, how foolish it all was. It portrays everything in a light way, which may make you think that it doesn't deal with heavy material, but Oh! it does. I've since heard the same 'moral' (live! don't live for a point or reason, but just because the hot dogs taste peachy and people smile at you) quite a few times, but this was the only work that really made me feel it. Also, I think that that is the most beautiful thought -- that Death isn't just an eradication of what you are forever. Nor is it even just a change of state. Death is a nice sweet girl who knows and loves everyone, and who talks to you soothingly afterwards, and takes you where you're going. Somehow, that thought is more comforting to me than Heaven. The point of art is to convey a meaning that is beyond words and logic and simple explanations, and I think that's precisely what Neil does here. Instead of trying to prove my point, I'll try to let some quotes speak for themselves (note: all these are from memory. I lent the book out to someone ("Death: HCL" is the present that all my closest friends receive from me, and I let everyone borrow it). So please forgive me if I get the wording wrong.) "It's just as easy to be nice as it is to be mean, but much more fun!" When Mad Hettie slips on the marbles she says: "You could of KILLED
someone." The cab driver, when Didi asked him about the garlic bulb, said, "It keep
BAD things away." "Of course I pay, Sexton! I must pay for everything. Right now, I have with me 10 dollars and 2 cents." And about the ankh: "It's the most important thing in the world... It's a symbol, and symbols have power. Maybe not in the way he thinks, though." "How much is this one?" What about the title? Do you see all the meanings (there are at least four that I can think of right now) contained in it? Death *is* the high cost of living. But remember what Didi says when Death asks her if it was all worth it, at the end? Yes, she had to pay for a day of life the same as everyone else: she had to die, at the end. Death doesn't get excluded from her own rules, and everything has a price. But, oh, it's worth it to pay. Why end life, why pay the price now, when there's so much left to see and do, so many people to meet (everyone comes to the big city eventually), hot dogs to eat, and delis to have breakfast in? I know that when I put it this way, it's trite, and I'm not the first, or even the millionth, to say this. But "Death" was the first work that allowed me to really see this, to feel the point instead of just reading it. I could also come to the defense of the book as literature, but I'm too tired :) Sorry for the long and rambling post, everyone, but this is something I'm passionate about, and I just had to defend something this beautiful from the heathens :P Lightbringer (OK, back to lurker mode for a while, maybe. Or maybe I'll fill out the questionnaire after all, and devote a huge chunk of life to the ng from now on. I do love this community!) Subject: Re: Death Lightbringer wrote: <snip> What can I say but, wow. That was simply beautiful. I'm at a loss for words. I wish I could have written that, but since I couldn't have, thanks for giving me a chance to read it. I do hope that you decide to come out of lurker mode now, as, if this is any indication, you could really add a lot to this group. I'm awed. Subject: Re: Death thanks, I appreciate the reponse. I realize the book must have this effect on lots of people. but I already felt the things that were said in the book, so maybe I'm too smart to enjoy some things. like those idiots who pick out all the faults of a movie when it's simply meant for enjoyment. you must understand how expectations can shatter reality, surely? :) basically, I was thrilled at the premise of following Death around on her day as a human. but it didn't live up to my expectations. I kind of wanted to see her pop into existance at the crack of dawn and eat breakfast and etc etc etc. my gripe is that it tried to have a plot when it didn't really need one and it sort of fell flat. I didn't see much reason for Mad Hettie or the blind guy to be in the story. it just seems silly that Death found the heart that she's not supposed to be able to find, without even looking (and also that the door had no handle on the inside and that there'd be an abandoned room like that, full of comics and records and toys and magazines. give me the address for that place, and I wouldn't care if I could get out!). I also wanted to see what was going to happen with Sexton
and the gloved girl, and who she was. and I wanted to know
a little more about Sexton's relationship with Hazel and Foxy. and um, anyway, just wondering if anyone felt the SAME. off the subject, um... does anyone have any theories as to why some Endless have bleach-white skin and some don't? or is this another "so you haven't read ___???" (e) Subject: Re: Death > and how Foxy could possibly be in the closet with those Well, in The High Cost of Living, it didn't matter what she sang about--she was just playing a small club. But in the Time of Your Life, we really don't know what songs are on Foxglove's album. Yes, her record label probably knew, her friends knew, but they just kept it to themselves once she became famous. I've watched a lot of my friends have to be in the closet--but well, let's
face it--most of society assumes everyone is straight. Keeping that in
mind, and watching what you say around people, it's not too much of a
challenge to keep people from finding out. It's not a lot of fun, though. Eden Subject: Re: Death > but I already felt the Eddz, you may not be doing this on purpose, but it feels like you are insulting the intelligence of the members of this group who have been affected by the book. I hate to tell you, but many of us are rather intelligent. I personally attend the #1 Liberal Arts College in the United States (well, we keep changing spots with Amherst, but we have better professors in literature and philosophy departments, which are the areas I'm concentrating on). I am majoring in philosophy, and, though many call it useless, none would call it simple, or for the intellectually challenged. The purpose of that wasn't to brag, but merely to point out that I'm not an idiot simply because I enjoyed a book that you deem 'basic'. I am also young (and was much younger when I read it), but I am certain that there are many people in this group who are both more intelligent and experienced than me, and who were also touched by "Death"'s beauty. Perhaps you are looking at the story only superficially, as only a 'concept' (Death lives a day) or a plot (some things happen), as opposed to a treatise on existence, which is what I think it is. I apologize for putting it too simply in my last message. I see that the quotes weren't enough to convince you (though others apparently agreed with me). > expectations. I kind of wanted to see her pop into existance So this was an expectation of 'concept', was it not? You came in expecting something specific, and everything that contradicted your expectations irritated you. >I didn't see much reason for Mad Hettie or the blind guy to be in the story. I did. They illustrated VERY VERY important parts of Death's character, as well as the meaning of her job. The book would have been much less interesting without them > seems silly that Death found the heart that she's not YES! That is the whole point! Hettie hid her heart from Death, but she has known all along that only Death herself would be able to find it. Do you see it? It is rather hard to explain. Can anyone who is feeling more articulate than I today help me out? > I also wanted to see what was going to happen with Sexton YES! That is life. Life continues beyond this book, and beyond Didi's death (and her Death, obviously). I was personally very grateful that the story ended where it did, providing mere glimpses into different lives, rather than intruding, Bulwer-Lytton-esque, and explaining every thought and action, or resolving every plotline and personal issue like a sitcom. I'm glad that we didn't find out any more. And stories must end. It's what gives them meaning. Gaiman said what he wanted to say, and that had little to do with Fox or Hazel or the gloved girl, or even with Sexton. It had to do with life and people in general, not in specific. Again, the story wasn't a 'plot', but more like a painting. Meaning does not imply a standard narrative that all ties together at the end. In fact, the latter often destroys meaning. This is why novels are usually driven by plot and character, while short stories are driven by meaning and significance alone. > there's really nothing to disagree with, I only asked a question. Well, I've tried to explain to you why I, and probably many others, disagree. You may continue to think us fools if you like. However, I myself have done quite a lot of film theory, and have dissected James Joyce's"Finnegan's Wake", and I'm sure many here have done likewise, so I doubt that there's a lot to the story that you see and we don't. Maybe you should read it again, and look for something deeper than what you saw. Then again, maybe we are all reading too much into it all, though I don't think so. Anyway, I've probably exhausted my 'rant quota' for today, and now I'm REALLY tired :) -- Subject: Re: Death Lightbringer wrote: >Anyway, I've probably exhausted my 'rant quota' for today, and now I'm Now...I honestly don't care if this gets put down as a one-line post, etc. However...in the wise words of the Prophets of the New Age (Sifl & Olly)... Lightbringer...you ROCK! * Entropy isn't what it used to be. -=- The NightWalker -=- Subject: Re: Death I think it has as much to do with the temperment and personnality of the Endless as anything else. For example, Dream's pale flesh and dark clothing coincides perfectly with his Byronic, romantic soul, wheras Destruction is considerably more human and down to earth, thus a more human skin colour. Subject: Re: Death eddz wrote: > my gripe is that it tried to have a plot when it didn't really I would tend to agree with this...the story didn't really need a bad guy, except inasmuch as it gave the story some kind of structure. > I also wanted to see what was going to happen with Sexton That's true....she was neat. Not really part of the Death story, but it's fun to think about. Overall, I really did like HCOL. TOYL was definitely not as good, but it had cool art. > off the subject, um... does anyone have any theories Yeah, I don't know what's up with that. :-) Maybe they're just suppose to be the ones that are the most goth. ~smirk~ --Jenny Jo Subject: Re: Death eddz wrote: Didi found it, not Death. She probably could only have found it as a mortal. > the gloved girl, and who she was She told us (well, Sexton) all about herself! >I wanted to know She was in the closet not among her friends, but as far as a public performer. >off the subject, um... does anyone have any theories "That's how they choose to appear to us" would be the canonical answer. And as far as the "so you haven't read..." argument, I just want to point out that I'm not condemning you for not having read everything (I know I was on this NG before I had read Kindly Ones), but you need to recognize that without having read the series as a whole, you risk having any theories you advance shot down because you don't have all the evidence. I know the single issues are hard to find and collections may be expensive - borrow! (posted & mailed) Subject: Re: Death
>She told us (well, Sexton) all about herself! she did? are you saying that story she told was actually about herself? I don't know, it never occured to me. I'd think that's the kind of thing you wouldn't want to talk about, especially with a stranger. so you think she wears gloves to cover scars on her wrists? >She was in the closet not among her friends, but as far as a public performer. erm "In the dark I kissed you girl" is hardly ambiguous. I mean, since she basically said"hi, i'm gay" in her first performance, you'd think that would be kind of hard to hide from the press. >I thought F&H's relationship w/ Sexton was pretty clearly explained. I didn't say it wasn't clearly explained, just that I'd like to know a little more about it. (e) Subject: Re: Death eddz wrote: She wouldn't have probably told the story ordinarily, except that Sexton made suicidal-sounding comments to her. I always assumed she was talking about herself. <jumps up and runs to get the book> Yes. She says, "Live fast, love hard, and leave a beautiful corpse." He
retorts, "Live dull, and think, 'why bother,' and leave a note saying goodbye." Also, the way it's written, there are emphasized points and pauses in the story that would seem consistent with it being about herself, for example: "I... had a friend who was badly abused...." "The family fiction was that she -- my *friend* -- liked hunting..." Between that and the gloves, it seemed pretty obvious to me that she was talking about herself. >erm "In the dark I kissed you girl" is hardly I was referring to the lyrics in D:TTOYL In D:THCOL, she's performing at a
small club (someone else already mentioned this, i think), and those songs
aren't necessarily ones she'd record or perform in a more professional setting. "And any way you look you know it's on the level,/And I don't care how it appears./I'm not afraid of the world, the flesh, or devil,/I'm just afraid of no more tears./That's what George's tongue said." These lyrics (and the ones in D:THCOL) reference the events of A Game Of You directly, by the way. So they're significant as far as the continuity of the story, but they're pretty elliptical if you don't know what happened before the story, which I'd assume Fox's audiences wouldn't. >I didn't say it wasn't clearly explained, just I think it was Lightbringer who said that part of the point of the Death stories is that life goes on, before and after the start of the actual tale we're told. I agree with that, and I like it that way. Sometimes knowing a little more spoils everything, makes it too neat and tidy and not as much fun. longwindedly, luna Subject: Re: Death >From: lunavudu
>I think it was Lightbringer who said that part of the point of the Death This reminded me of a Magian Line interview with Neil (before the second death series) about the little bits we've seen of Foxgloves and Hazels life... NG: Yes, and also, they're a very irritating couple in some ways - they carry on in real-time in my head. It's true - some characters don't, some characters will move into stasis when they get offstage. I stop writing about them and they freeze. They'll stand there in the same position until I go back and look at them. Foxglove and Hazel don't. They've already had their baby, Foxglove's career is doing just fine, they're currently moving out of New York, they're doing just fine. Just thought it might be appropriate to slip in... Jen Subject: Re: Death
>she did? are you saying that story she told Um, duh. > I don't know, it Um, duh. The whole "I have a friend who has this problem, doctor" thing was
played so heavy-handedly that it made me cringe when I first read it.
>erm "In the dark I kissed you girl" is hardly Since the press weren't there, it wouldn't even be necessary to hide anything from them. -Mute. Subject: Re: Death october@zone.com (eddz) blurted: >I'm wondering if anyone else was actually disappointed The second one was so widely acknowledged to suck that Gaiman wrote some new pages for the collection to pad out the ending a bit more. But I guess you'll never read that... Mute Subject: Re: Death Mute wrote:
> The second one was so widely acknowledged to suck that Gaiman wrote Or as he puts it himself in the Afterward: Sorcha Subject: Re: Death Mute wrote:
> The second one was so widely acknowledged to suck that Gaiman wrote You mean the extra pages in the paperback, with discernably different art? I thought that they were a bit superflous, but then, I'm one of those who did like The Time Of Your Life. It's the only thing that Neil has written so far which has made me cry. M Subject: Re: Death Mute <mute@tpg.com.au> wrote: > The second one was so widely acknowledged to suck that Gaiman wrote I don't know if that's *quite* the way it happened. The problems of Death: The Time of Your Life do stem from the fact that it was cut from 4 issues to 3...but I may be mistaken in thinking that the pages that were added in to the collection were already written/done and just didn't fit in when it came press time. And the second one...it's really *not* that bad. Well, there's stuff you have to forgive. I'd never hand it to anyone as a representation of what Gaiman can do or anything, but it's got its good stuff. Eden
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